a question on ethics

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a question on ethics

Post  Mountainman Vic on Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:18 pm

So this one has had my gerbil on his wheel a few times and I saw a "how far you would shoot" question on Jim Shockey's Facebook page and some of the answers really surprised me. 

My first question is, What does the word ethical mean to you?

My second question is, How far would you or someone else shoot at a deer with a bow?

My last question is, Where does ethics fit in with the dispatching of an animal and where does political correctness take over?

I raise these questions one for the fun of conversation, but also to make us think about where we as a society are headed. 

My answer to the first question is that the meaning of ethical is to do what is morally right, not necessarily what is politically correct. While this will vary widely on peoples personal beliefs. 

My second answer is that this would depend on the person shooting and the conditions of the shot. For example, Shooting at a whitetail in the deer woods is going to be different than shooting at one in an open field. Also when we are in a treestand we can't control the sway of the tree in the breeze which will make holding steady much more difficult. So I feel that a person should feel free to shoot at any distance that matches their own personal abilities. I've seen some people who's 80 yard score would out shoot others 30 yard score. So to me the correct answer doesn't include a set yardage.

On the last question, I ask this because to me, while I don't want to see and animal suffer at all and take it very serious, making a bad shot is not a moral issue, nor is making a poor shot choice. Now in saying this I would also say that if someone is without care or compassion for the animals we harvest that there is a moral issue that goes beyond just the animals that they hunt.

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Re: a question on ethics

Post  bowGal on Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:52 pm

I like this  post   Vic Wink 
 To much going on tonight to post  my reply, but  I am off tomorrow, and looking very forward to  reading  the upcoming replies to this post

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Re: a question on ethics

Post  G3 on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:06 pm

Interesting post Vic.
I would have to say for me
#1 ethical to me is to do or act as what your primal instinct tells you is right. Knowing the difference between right and wrong and acting appropriately.
#2 is a very speculative question, a lot of the answer for me depends on the conditions and ecosystem I am in at the time the shot presents itself. Under the best of conditions I would not hesitate to shoot 60 yards with my bow and be very very confident of making a lethal/killing shot. With that said I have been in situations where I would not shoot 20 yards because that is what the terrain and weather dictated to me.
#3 Is a no brainer. I have never considered political correctness into any ethical decision I have ever made. If there were and animal in distress that was critically injured I would dispatch that animal without question or guilt, immediately.
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Re: a question on ethics

Post  Willy on Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:18 pm

My phone rings more than once every season to go help track a deer that has been hit with a bad shot .  honestly say that none that i have looked for were what i would say were long shots.  Some of my worst shots have been on deer inside 15 yards.  The first thing you always hear when the topic of longer distance shots come up , thats not ethical,  when you make a bad shot on a 15 yard deer is that unethical ?  is there a certain distance that a deer will be killed in more ethical way than another distance ?  a mortally hit animal will die at 60 yards the same way one will at 20 . I believe that most of what you hear when this is brought up has more to do with the individuals own ego and what they want those listening to percieve about that person. So many of the people that bark the loudest about ethics are full of shit  .  The internet gives people the ability to write and say what they think will give them the apperance of the ultimate hunter and one above all reproach . Dont get me started on that crowd . 
Deer hunting involves philsolphical ethics, that is to say they are not set in stone. They are questions that only you can answer .  When someone tries to tell you that Thier code of ethics is the only code and if you dont agree your not ethical, they simply do not even know the meaning of the word. Its then that it becomes an argument centered on political correctness. 
I have no problem with long distance shots , if the shooter knows his equipment and is confident in his ability then he should take the shot that presents itself.  Even though a person can consistantly hit the 10 ring at 60 yards with his 330 fps bow is no free pass on those kind of shots on live game . thats where the understanding your gear comes in. The bottom line is unless your being filmed , chances are you are alone at the moment of truth , what you do or dont do will only be witnessed by you and your maker . Your own ethics , your own moral compass is the only one that matters .
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Re: a question on ethics

Post  MEhunter on Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:02 am

Just went through a very similar post to this one over on another page the other day when the topic of "Where to shoot your moose" came up. That word "ethical" came up a whole hell of a lot. Peoples opinions on ethics vary greatly that's for sure!!

I will skip the answer to the first one and just say the "book" definition

Most of my stands I can't shoot beyond 40 yards and I feel confident out to 40 so I would say 40 is my max. I've done plenty of target shooting at 50, but it would have to be the perfect scenerio for me to take that shot.

The last one I would say much like Tim, no brainer. You can take a very ethical shot and have something bad happen at any time.

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Re: a question on ethics

Post  TheCReW on Tue Aug 05, 2014 5:10 pm

Great post
 
1- in a hunting context it means the activity is safe, legal, and respectful to other hunters, the land and the animals

2- My max is 40 yards, and that is if everything is perfect. With a wind, or some brush in the way, I like to keep it under 25. Lindsay's max is 12 yards with her recurve and I have watched her pass some big bears and deer that were 15 yards because they were too far, no compromises on this, we owe it to the animals and she knows that is where she can confidently hit her target every time.

3 - Ethics is the only consideration, of course political correctness plays into ethics. For example, I could have killed a 50" bull moose last year legally, on land I had permission on, but there was an old farm house 500 yards away and where the moose would run after the shot would have been in sight of the window. I passed the shot, went and talked to the homeowners who asked that I not shoot the moose as they 'liked having it around'. That could be portrayed as political correctness, but to me it was ethics, making sure not to give hunters a bad name is part of ethics, even if it is sometimes politically correct with little basis in the suffering of the animal or quality of the hunt. The yearling cow I ended up shooting was tastier anyway Wink

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Re: a question on ethics

Post  BBinPA on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:34 pm

1) I agree with Willy that everyone has their own ethics code and Chad's definition is about perfect.

2) An article in Quality Whitetails a few issues ago had a study on fixed vs mechanical broadheads and basically I think deer were recovered at a 80-90% clip. I will take that norm and say I would only shoot up to a distance where I thought I would kill the deer at an 80-90% clip; for me thats about 35 yds ( I assume a clear shot on this hypothetical).

3) Too much PC in todays world. Thats my thoughts on that.
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Re: a question on ethics

Post  Pa. Bowhunter on Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:31 pm

1. do the right thing , plus what Chad said.
2. I would have no problem shooting 60 yards , in an open field , no wind and so on. In the woods, the longest shot I can take is maybe 40, way too many things can go wrong in the woods, all it takes is for a slight breeze to move that one little limb into your arrows flight path.
3.This is one I hate !! Not so much on somebody making a bad  or anything like that , that part comes under the s**t happens theory Very Happy !! Yes some people shouldn't be in the woods with anything less than a tank !! Like the guys who wait until 8 pm the night before the opener and brush off the dust of their bow or gun without every shooting it. What I also hate is the P.C. part of it. That is a joke and I have the perfect example. A few years ago we were coming home from the farm after the evening hunt during the youth doe season. We come rolling up on a smashed van , a Pa. state trooper and a nice buck laying on the road, with a severely busted spine but still alive, looking up at me and making noises. I asked the trooper why don't you put it down, instead of sitting here watching it suffer. He said its a Pa. Game Commission problem  Evil or Very Mad !! I said I will do it and headed for the truck to get my pistol. Well mr. super trooper said if you kill this deer I will put you in cuffs !! I said you can't , this is a PGC problem and you have zero control over what I do. Well he gets all p.o.'ed and starts yelling. So I said at least grab it and move it off the damn road because it almost got hit 2 more times , he said no I can't , I might get hurt ! So I told him he really needs to be wearing a skirt , grabbed the buck and pulled it off to the berm. Just as the game warden came pulling in. He starts yelling at me , so I yelled back and explained what was exactly going on. That's when he started yelling at the state cop and also told him to go buy a skirt cause your acting like a 2nd grade schoolgirl Very Happy !!! In that situation that buck should have been put down a.s.a.p. by whoever and the warden agreed with everything I said !!
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Re: a question on ethics

Post  Boss Gobbler on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:42 pm

1: I think everyone's answer will be the same here, knowing what is the right thing to do in a given situation and doing it.

2: I personally have never used my 40 yard pin while hunting. In the yard under ideal conditions on a stationary target I can put a dozen arrows in a paper plate at 60 yards. That being said with my set up, to me the arrow takes just a little to long to get 60 yards to try it on a live deer. In knowing that I am most comfortable under 40 yards, I take that into consideration when hanging my bow stands. I would be lucky to shoot further than 30 yards out of most of them.

3: If you have hunted for any length of time you will make a bad shot and have to chase one down and you will also lose one. I think once you have decided to harvest an animal you should do everything in your power to make it quick and clean. If it isnt, you should do everything in your power to recover that animal. If you dont have respect for that animal you shouldnt be hunting. To be honest when I was younger I didnt really understand what that meant. I would take long shots and questionable shots that I would never do now. Sometimes buck fever would override the voice of reason. I shot a lot more deer back then but it took losing a really nice buck and getting that sicking feeling that doesnt go away to make me step back and reevaluate. Even though it has been 15 -16 years ago I still find myself stopping where it took place and replaying it in my head. 

On a side note I kinda think TV hunting has spawned a group of "super hunters" where everything is a measuring contest. They have the best equipment and yours sucks.  Their views are right and yours are wrong, a holier than thou attitude. It is to the point that I go out of my way not to get into discussions on hunting outside of my group of friends. Go to any large forum and read about 3 topics and you will see it. Like Willy said it seems like the people who talk the loudest are the ones most full of it.
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